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Destiny

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TLN – DUST Economic Musings

This topic contains 52 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of x0scarMike x0scarMike 4 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 53 total)
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  • #8924
    Profile photo of postmanclark
    postmanclark
    Participant

    At this moment in time we have enough ISK to be able to start off in Planet Conquest; this is due to the generosity of a few individuals (thanks to those people, you know who you are). On a side note, considering that all items have been refunded and we all have lots of ISK (I personally had 160m); now would be a good time to donate to the corp.

    In reality this isn’t a very good system, as this relies on the few that put the hours in the game and have a sense of the bigger picture; I don’t believe donations to be fair. In the medium term, when taxes can be inputted into the corporation, we will definitely be making use of that system. Even if this means getting less ISK, compared to the donating ‘era’.

    In the long term, when dust equipment becomes manufacturable on the EVE side and corporation armouries exist, I would like to see a 3rd policy. Abolish the tax system and bring back the donating system, however in order to establish ISK flow again, there would be a change. The following paragraph is all dependedent on if this is economically viable; I don’t see why it shouldn’t be.

    The people who donate ISK to the corporation, will receive items that they request from the corporation at half market price; this means they will be able to get double the amount of equipment for their ISK. The corporation benefits, because in between the half price equipment and the manufacturing costs, profit will be made; also not to forget the donated ISK in the first place.

    This should keep TLN members loyal and happy, because they are getting a good deal; and also should provide enough ISK to the corporation. The only drawbacks being, if there isn’t enough donating happening – we may still have to retain a corporation tax and also this relies on EVE players mining and manufacturing. Plus one member to look after the donations and armoury, it could be a pretty intensive role.

    #8925
    Profile photo of DjSparx162
    DjSparx162
    Participant

    the only issue i have with this idea, is that it takes the thought that your loadout costs 200K, give the corp 200K and your loadout will cost 100K. while the idea is sound, the player will be 100K out of pocket, therefore actually increasing the value of the loadout by 50% (200K donation + 100K loadout purchase = 150K loadout value) unless you’re idea is donate 200K and you get 2 of your loadouts, in which case thats a clever idea, however it requires that we donate with no return early (which as a business idea is something that happens every single day) to expect a massive return later on, or wait, and potentially not have this system in place due to no early investors. its a really complex idea to throw in, but at the same time, its a clever way of creating a small, yet intensive revenue quickly.


    #8926
    Profile photo of SSAGENT022
    SSAGENT022
    Participant

    the only issue i have with this idea, is that it takes the thought that your loadout costs 200K, give the corp 200K and your loadout will cost 100K. while the idea is sound, the player will be 100K out of pocket, therefore actually increasing the value of the loadout by 50% (200K donation + 100K loadout purchase = 150K loadout value) unless you’re idea is donate 200K and you get 2 of your loadouts, in which case thats a clever idea, however it requires that we donate with no return early (which as a business idea is something that happens every single day) to expect a massive return later on, or wait, and potentially not have this system in place due to no early investors. its a really complex idea to throw in, but at the same time, its a clever way of creating a small, yet intensive revenue quickly.

    But wouldn’t that mean that you are just buying suits in advance?
    Cause i but my suits at 20 at a time, so really, you are just getting them in advance, and you then have to earn the money with those suits.

    #8928
    Profile photo of x0scarMike
    x0scarMike
    Member

    The only thing i see wrong with a tax is what do the members get in return. Citizens pay the government for roads and etc… Do we get roads? You got to give us something better then just suits.

    #8930
    Profile photo of TECH-SARGE
    TECH-SARGE
    Participant

    The only thing i see wrong with a tax is what do the members get in return. Citizens pay the government for roads and etc… Do we get roads? You got to give us something better then just suits.

    Well what you will get in the end is any equipment that the members need for free so paying tax now will give you free stuff back later.

    Now my opinion is this, i am not a fan of the tax system, BUT sometimes it is a necessary evil, like oscarmike (LOL, joke). And tax just means you donate its just periodically fixed and mandatory.

     


    #8931
    Profile photo of RocketRob99
    RocketRob99
    Moderator

    It seems to me that there are many variables to consider with any of these systems.. And like most things not everyone is going to be happy. I think that you guys are discussing the important sides of this and stress that you continue the discussion and get as many members as possible involved. I mean it is pretty clear that as much as the team supports the corp the corp also must support the team..

    The system for forged weapons sounds interesting and I would love to hear more about how that will work as far as the marketplace goes for that.

    Keep posting info on this so we can all have a look..


    #8932
    Profile photo of DjSparx162
    DjSparx162
    Participant

    DjSparx162 wrote:
    the only issue i have with this idea, is that it takes the thought that your loadout costs 200K, give the corp 200K and your loadout will cost 100K. while the idea is sound, the player will be 100K out of pocket, therefore actually increasing the value of the loadout by 50% (200K donation + 100K loadout purchase = 150K loadout value) unless you’re idea is donate 200K and you get 2 of your loadouts, in which case thats a clever idea, however it requires that we donate with no return early (which as a business idea is something that happens every single day) to expect a massive return later on, or wait, and potentially not have this system in place due to no early investors. its a really complex idea to throw in, but at the same time, its a clever way of creating a small, yet intensive revenue quickly.

    But wouldn’t that mean that you are just buying suits in advance?
    Cause i but my suits at 20 at a time, so really, you are just getting them in advance, and you then have to earn the money with those suits.

     

    it depends on the way its set up, if you go the 200K + 100K per suit idea, then thats 300K for 1 suit, which is a 1.5 markup on a suit, however the 200K for 2 is a 50% reduction in price, so in one case the paying is actually adding extra to your outgoings which while necessary to the corps growth is detrimental to personal growth.

    But 200K for 2 suits is both helpful to the corps growth as they’ll be earning money from the sale while retaining a profit margin as they’ll be able to source the materials and get the finished products at a marked down price, potentially even bypassing the proto suits we love and creating our own suits that allow us even more customisation. while also allowing us to grow and push through different things as we’ll have the economy within our own corp to push for more if we have that kind of system.

    theres a right way and a wrong way to go about it (but they are personal opinions, neither is right and neither is wrong) but its something that needs to discussed as we’re doing now to throw ideas down and see how we think it should be, as by in large its our money we’re throwing into the Corp, so in that sense as the ground troops, we’re the ones who’ll be pushing for a higher return on the money we invest, than potentially Tech et al can deliver, so these discussions are very important. what we think is reasonable, Tech and co may think is unreasonable and vice versa, so theres got to be some middle ground between the two, which we’re going to get to eventually.


    #8933
    Profile photo of x0scarMike
    x0scarMike
    Member

    If you are going give us free items, wouldn’t you guys make more money selling those items and then having no tax… Also less hassel…

    #8934
    Profile photo of postmanclark
    postmanclark
    Participant

    In response to OM, if it wasn’t for the few that have donated a lot between them, we would not be in a position to compete in faction warfare. Would that have been good for TLN in Dust … definitely not; so sometimes tax whilst not beneficial in the short term, would definitely be beneficial to TLN in the long term. Just think instead of people donating, with a tax we would have had seed money into our corporation; if we maintain a couple of territories for the future (unlikely, possibly) we would now have 8m ISK per day, which would be generated, just because of the tax.

    If taxing unlocks the better areas of the game for TLN to play in, isn’t that ultimately worth paying for. For example, a horde PVE mode is going to be introduced into the game. It is possible, this will only be playable for corporations who have districts. If this is the case then would a tax be worth it – to gain the money, to start in planet conquest. So that we would be able to play the horde mode as a 16 man team, it would be insanely cool.

    IMO, as long as I have got ISK for the best suit possible when playing PC, I am always using a suit that at worst (say like 18 deaths) – I break even. People who are wrapped up in their stats and use proto suits are barely staying even. New Eden is a place to make money, not to lose it – ISK is be all and end all of this universe.

    Where I am coming from with the donations is that for example, a person donates 7.5m ISK and says I want complex shield extenders. At the current market rate complex shield extenders are 7,500 each – so 7.5m ISK would get you 1000 of them. However, as part of the deal, you would now get 2000 of them, for a price of 3750 each; hopefully the shield extenders would only cost 2000 to manufacture each. So the member gets the module for half the market value (a good deal) and the corporation gets the 7.5m ISK, plus the 1750 per module profit.

    #8935
    Profile photo of Boomer2_6
    Boomer2_6
    Participant

    If you are going give us free items, wouldn’t you guys make more money selling those items and then having no tax… Also less hassel…

    The Tax is be for we are able to make our own goods. We will be able to start giving free stuff to out corp as soon as the corp has a steady ISK flow.

    The only thing i see wrong with a tax is what do the members get in return. Citizens pay the government for roads and etc… Do we get roads? You got to give us something better then just suits.

    We will give land, goods, fun games and laughs by all.

    #8936
    Profile photo of Boomer2_6
    Boomer2_6
    Participant

    The Tax is a temporary solution  to make it fair that all people are making the corp the best it is. You have to realize that the the corp can not make any money yet and will only make little ISK when we are not being attacked from other corps in PC.  In the big picture when we are able to mine, manufacture, sell, take over Titans, and anything else that can help the corp make ISK we will do that instead of relying on the members to keep in the positive. Think of it as you are a share holder in the corp it profits you profit.

    #8958
    Profile photo of x0scarMike
    x0scarMike
    Member

    By putting a tax you are going to push away at least half of new recruits and force out members who are not 100% dedicated to TLN… We cannot rely on our alliance for bodies all the time and we have hard enough time getting 8 TLN members on at one time already…

    #8960
    Profile photo of postmanclark
    postmanclark
    Participant

    Why would that force members out? If people are loyal to TLN, a small tax is not going to matter; if they aren’t loyal – do we want those kind of people?

    If you read the forums, most corporations are going to put taxes in; very few aren’t.

    #8961
    Profile photo of x0scarMike
    x0scarMike
    Member

    Right now we aren’t big enough with just “loyal” members…..

    #8962
    Profile photo of x0scarMike
    x0scarMike
    Member

    By not putting taxes in, that would drive more people to us then…

    #8963
    Profile photo of DjSparx162
    DjSparx162
    Participant

    OM the way you’ve got to think about it (i’m not the most EVE/DUST savvy so you’ll have to bear with me and if i’m wrong please call me out on it) is that Corps are akin to countries, if you say moved from the US to the UK, you wouldn’t continue paying the US taxes, you’d pay the UK taxes, so if a player applies to the corp and we specify there is a (number being pulled from ass in 3…2…1…) 10% tax on earnings, they would have to agree to that taxation, if they don’t agree to those ‘laws’ (for want of a better term) then unfortunately you’re not going to be granted ‘citizenship’ within the TLN community. if that makes sense, another way to look at it is, in the economy at the moment taxes are going up (at least they are in the UK, they just wack that clever title Duty on it and cover it up) so for someone like me who smokes, 3 months ago 20 Marlboro Reds would cost me around £7.50, now they cost just under £8, which doesn’t sound like a lot, but thats how countries make money.

    now the simple answer for me not paying this tax on cigarettes is simply don’t smoke, the same can be said for dust, do i NEED to run a 50K ISK assault rifle, fuck no, do i like it, yes, so if i want to keep that, and we’re able to make 2 of these weapons for 50K i’d much rather send Post the money he gives me 2 weapons, and he makes a tidy profit on top that enables our little country to grow.

    if this continues, and we source cheaper materials, we may be able to push to 4 weapons for 50K. the dust economy will only take you so far, as soon as we’re able to make the weapons cheaper we wont be heading to the dust version of amazon, we’ll be heading directly to our own people and buying off them, if i manage to find a way to get your laser rifles 30K cheaper than you can find them, you’ll buy them off me, rather than the dust marketplace, whether or not a profit is made from me, is irrelevant. it helps with the supply and demand of the corp, and is actually something thats been discussed before but i really don’t have the patience to go find the thread. i know you were active in there as well, about how the corp can make money and what that could mean for us, aka taxing us then we get paid for playing the game.


    #8965
    Profile photo of ExtremMilSimOP
    ExtremMilSimOP
    Participant

    This is a legitimate topic for discussion, props for thinking of it ahead of time Post.

    I’m really not much for the whole “donation benefits” idea, as I think donations should be exactly that, a donation. If I donate to charity, I don’t expect anything back; sure, I might get a t-shirt or coffee mug, but they aren’t going to give me anything of significant value. I think TLN LTD. should operate on a similar principle: donations only benefit a player by allowing them to feel that they are contributing to the greater good of the Corp instead of themselves. Adding in some sort of return value not only complicates the process, but also turns it more into an investment.

    On that note, I take a conservative viewpoint in politics, and share that view in as highly political game such as EVE/Dust. I think we should impose a constant minimal tax of around %5 per match (if the tax system doesn’t function like this, none of this would really work properly. I really think a general tax out of players wallets would be a MUCH MUCH worse way for it to be handled, so hopefully CCP has some common sense for this one -_-). I can safely say I average around 220K per match, with Boomer and Post averaging more (lets say 240K?). Playing as frequently as I was, I would make about 45K for the Corp in one night. Depending on the abilities of those I’m squadded with, that would make about 270K per squad in a night of gaming (for me, I don’t play as often as Boom or Post.) Lets say that we’re running 2 squads per night (which wouldn’t be impossible), that makes 540K in ONE night. Approximately 16.2 Mil in one month. Keep in mind, that would solely be ISK from the handful of hours I play at night; considering the activity and numbers of our members, I could see us making 200 Mil ISK a month EASILY (and I really wouldn’t mind a %10 tax myself, which would double the ISK). The reason I stated all of that leads to this point: it’s all automated. All TECH (presumably) has to do after it is implemented is alter a number to start this process happening. It will not halt unless similar actions are taken to stop it. Whereas the proposed system of a “return” among the donors would require much more manpower and governing. We would have to decide who deserves what, who NEEDS what, who wants what, if they’re being reasonable, etc. This will more than likely take quite a bit of work on the part of officers.

    Here’s the big killer, what if someone is not there to take the responsibility? This is a game after all, and everyone can’t always be connected. As an example, say I donate 10 Mil ISK to TLN LTD. at the beginning of the month, and I expect to receive 50 Heavy suits in return. Around the end of the month, I’m hurtin’ for ISK because I’ve been helping Agent buy his Lambo-Tanks (har har), and can’t even afford decent suits. I’m expecting my investment to pay off, right? So I simply message Post about getting my suits. Can we always count on officer activity 24/7? What if, per say, Post has just moved, and can’t set up his internet for a week, would I feel just a little cheated that I couldn’t get my suits if I really needed them? It wouldn’t be his fault that I’m running starter suits because I have nothing, it would be the systems’. None of this is even counting prices changes…

    TL;DR All I’m really saying is that donations should be donations, and even a small tax on a handful of active players can go a long way while remaining more reliable. I also highly doubt it’d be a handful of players for long XD.



    “You know what I am tired of.. South Americans !!!!!!!”–RocketRob 2014
    #8971
    Profile photo of SSAGENT022
    SSAGENT022
    Participant

    I think for existing members, the TAX is no BIG DEAL since we got a huge re-imbursement from the new build.

    #8972
    Profile photo of postmanclark
    postmanclark
    Participant

    DJ, it was this post that we had discussions before – so you don’t need to find it; just read it ALL again lol.

    Extreme I can see where you are coming from, with regards to it being simpler and being a less pain in the arse; by doing a taxation.

    I don’t know if it would be possible, but I would like to seriously try the donation for guns part, if it is at all achievable. It would be a middle ground, between taxation and donations. We could get a larger amount of ISK flow through the corporation and this could help kick start our economy to bigger and better things.

    In the short term I think of taxation as a safety net, you never know what CCP is going to drop and when; it would be a good way to build up our ‘net’. Put it this way, if it wasn’t for myself, Boomer, Kaloftherathi (and his alt), Wildwillie04 and several smaller donors – we would not be able to compete in Planet conquest or participate in the biggest Dust alliance there is.

    TL;DR is it fair if people can run proto suits and pad their stats, compared to others, who are running shitty, free suits to donate to the corporation. And do a lot worse because of it. No it isn’t.

    #8977
    Profile photo of x0scarMike
    x0scarMike
    Member

    Ok first of all if we already have money and do not plan to be taking planets left and right… How come we need this tax…. We will be making money off our planets….

    BTW its your own fault for not running your proto suits… No one said you have to donate to the corp… Do better with your proto suits and look at all that money… Wow

    #8978
    Profile photo of SSAGENT022
    SSAGENT022
    Participant

    Ok first of all if we already have money and do not plan to be taking planets left and right… How come we need this tax…. We will be making money off our planets…. BTW its your own fault for not running your proto suits… No one said you have to donate to the corp… Do better with your proto suits and look at all that money… Wow

    LOL

    imagine running, say A VIDEO GAME CLAN.

    AND YOU HAVE A WEBSITE WITH ABOUT 200 MEMBERS.

    IT TAKES ISK TO RUN THAT.

    So unless you are selfish OM, then you should know, you just like all of us SHOULD pay our fair share.  Not to mention there is no way PC will PAY the NECESSARY funds for the sustained cost of holding SAID territory.  Not to mention only the EVE players get the benefits of PC.

    And enjoy all your proto suits, because when corps have the ability to make them, the PRICE WILL SKY ROCKET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    And you will only be able to afford 10 at a time.

    So there is your answer.

    #8979
    Profile photo of x0scarMike
    x0scarMike
    Member

    Ok whatever you say agent… you are always right….

    #8988
    Profile photo of TECH-SARGE
    TECH-SARGE
    Participant

    Ok we are deriving from the subject which is pro’s and cons of a tax system. If we don’t keep it constructive i will shut this topic down. Now i think it would be better if we stick to what a better system would be tax or donations.

    BTW OscarMike have you donated yet to the corp?

     


    #8990
    Profile photo of DjSparx162
    DjSparx162
    Participant

    Postman there was one a fair few months back, i’ll see if i can drag it up.

     

    ‘obviously we’ll need to make a profit on top of the expenditure so we base say 10% of the expenditure on top of the base price for a full set up for a full team, then with 10 matches we’ve made a 100% profit based on what we use. repeat this and within a few weeks we should have around 1000% return after 100 matches, which is easily attainable by a clan of 150 members, so (random numbers will work it out more precisely when i have the chance to) say it costs 100,000ISK to buy a player 10 loadouts for a match (based on assault dropsuit, with a basic loadout assault rifle, pistol, health regenerator, shield regen and cardio) add on top of that a 10% contract fee of 10,000ISK you’ll be looking at a return of 10,000 per match plus unused loadout, from which a player can then begin buying their own weaponry on their personal gain from the match, and with 100+ players 1 match brings a 1 million return on a match obviously bonuses would have to be worked out for success and there would be penatlies for failure which would have to be negotiated, but for the most part a million ISk per match, 100 players play 5-10 matches per day, averages out between 5 and 10 million ISK bankable funds per day, which would set us off on the right track, when we acquire enough wealth after doing this for a few months we can then break off and begin our own campaign, obviously by then we’ll be working with other corps and sharing resources, but for the most part we’d be looking to bring in a healthy profit based on our own conquests.

    The ball for this should be set rolling around now, that way when it hits we’re all sorted with our team and where we stand in the EVE universe and who we work for. i know working for another corp is not ideal, but thats the main source of business, which from what i gather is the main thought process behind EVE. obviously you and Tech know more about EVE than the Dust players do, which in itself is a good thing, and when dust hits we’ll all be working together and we’ll require a EVE player to be online and in the airspace of the battles to help out the ground troops. so there will be constant communications between the two games and all players linked up in some way thats not been finalised by the developers yet.’

     

    and

     
    Rocket mentioned the academy in the Taloncast, and i have a suggestion for that, if its possible (i’m not sure, i’ve not read anything about it) to transfer ISK we could once it’s set up and running well, charge members outside of TLN a small fee (1-2000ISK per hour) for training, if by the end of the academy they wish to join then we can allow them access to their payment to buy the gear they need to make sure they’re to standard with the rest of the clan, if they choose, they could also choose to donate it to the clan funds. looking at the new beta build there are matches that are running to 500+ players, i’m sure i saw a match with 750 players in it (different matches within the match) so if we run it with however many players as the ‘trainers’ and open the rest to the clan (free) and other players (paid) and say all members of TLN are there, thats still 500+ slots we can then sell so off an hour playing in our academy we could potentially make 500,000+ ISK, which is quite staggering as a hourly rate, obviously the academy won’t be open 24/7 but during operating hours and with a healthy rotation of players acting as trainers, offering training in different skills and teaching players different aspects (for example i’m working on recon so i could be teaching say 4 – 5 players how to play recon in the different iterations of the play style) and say half of those trainees turn into members, we’ll have a sizeable force that could be a force to be reckoned with if we take our knowledge from the beta across with us to the final game. of course we’ll be starting afresh, but we’ll know what we’re doing in those roles. i’ve taken the time to try each race, each bloodline and each class setup to find what works best from the off for me. and i’m assuming others have as well, so we’ll be developing those skills more throughout the beta and those skills will travel across to the full game.
    from http://talonstrikeforce.net/community/forums/topic/industry-idea/

     

    i know a lot of that information is irrelevant now, but the general standpoint is the same. some of it may come across as a bit of a dictatorship (prize for winning, penalty for losing) but by in large if we lose we’re not making as much and with PC we’re looking at losing a significant money maker if we lose a district. obviously if we take a district we’re in the money with that area. theres a lot to think about. and that was something i came up with a year ago regarding this, obviously at that time the game was very new, now we know a lot more and we know whats happening we should be able to pull things apart and push different things to make it a better thing for everyone.

    but to go for the academy idea, we should have a TLN academy that we teach new players how to play how to work dropsuits to bring in extra income, charge players say 2000ISK per day, say a course runs 5-6 days, that’ll be 10-12K we make of these players. password for the chat changes everyday so they have to ask for entry which is only granted after we see the money enter the corp account, (if its possible to pay someone elses corp) etc


    #8991
    Profile photo of x0scarMike
    x0scarMike
    Member

    Ok we are deriving from the subject which is pro’s and cons of a tax system. If we don’t keep it constructive i will shut this topic down. Now i think it would be better if we stick to what a better system would be tax or donations. BTW OscarMike have you donated yet to the corp?

    No i have not donated a single penny due to reasons some TLN know.

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